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nicki: Hello, welcome to Nicki’s Wonder List a podcast about exploring story in a time of collapse. I’m Nicki Youngsma.

Today, we’re joined by Leah K. Walsh. Leah works with people who are sensitive and neuro divergent with rooted, respect and encouragement. She offers individual coaching sessions and a seasonal meetup so that others can safely explore their story embody their unique way of being in the. And show up freely today.

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nicki: Leah. It is so wonderful to be in conversation with you today. , I’m just so delighted that we’re here together I first met you. In a class that we took together.

leah: Yeah.

Portland Underground Graduate School. Which a lot of us call PUGS, and this class was about agrobiodiversity and it was taught by Dr. Neeraja Havalgi. And she brought the most beautiful and incredible dishes to this class to share. And I remember that I had like never tasted so many of these flavors before. And, it was just a real joy to be there, And, then you taught a class at pugs about acorn processing and I took that class.

nicki: And you know, again, gotten to try these foods that I had never encountered before. And some of them were eight corn muffins. There was a corn soup.

Leah: Yeah.

And then there is this really beautiful, special gift of moose meat that you shared with us. then after that, I worked with you for a season.

And, , I remember in one of our sessions together, you had said something to the effect of that you noticed in your practice that you seem to attract sensitive people. And at the time I thought that was just like an observation. And then, as I continue to follow your work, you share a lot of resources and reflections about neurodiversity including something called high sensitivity processing. I’ve gotten a lot of value out of that. And I am so grateful to know you and to witness the work that you’re doing. Because you continue to feed me in a way that I haven’t really found anywhere else. And so I am just really thrilled that we’re here today. Talking about subjects that are really important to us. So thank you for your, presence today.

leah: It’s a pleasure. Good to be here. And I’m feeling, like both of our stories is like the soil that we’re really orienting within. So you step into this time today.

nicki: Yeah, I love, I just love gardening analogies. Like I think my whole life, every time I just think about. So many topics it’s like, yes, there’s always like my mind goes to the garden and goes outside. Um, and that’s just another thing about your way of speaking that I’m just, like, yes, Thank you for saying it that way.

leah: Well, you know, that we share that. And the fact just remembering meeting and in Neeraja’s course, it is our origin story too.

nicki:  Yes. Yes. So much… Do you want to talk about high sensitivity processing?

leah: Yeah. Yeah, that feels like a really, it feels like a good place to begin,

nicki: Yeah.

leah: maybe. Cause in a personal way, I first. Came upon , the study of sensitivity through the work of Dr. Elaine, Erin, and the framing of highly sensitive people and also known as sensory processing sensitivity. And then I know something that.

As we follow some of these threads today, that will whine towards is how does that relate to the larger neurodiversity movement, which for me, that was something that I found after I started researching and being more involved in the culture and community around highly sensitive people.

nicki: Hmm.

leah: And Nicki, before I get into a little overview of that, because I think context and language is really important to listeners and it’s been really important to me, just want to say that. I come here to this conversation with you and I come here in my old life and these questions around, you know, neurodiversity and how we can come to know ourselves better. , is that there? No definitive answer that I will intend to offer today. I really want to contextualize this research and my own experience in my body and in the stories that I get to hold with people that there’s a lot of not knowing. That is happening within these movements right now. And so I will do my best to share.

And we’ll invite you, you know, to share as well, like what, where we’re at now. And a lot of that focus is probably going to be what’s the research saying. Kind of what’s the culture doing around these different terms and then what are the best next questions that we’re holding right now to make sure that where we’re moving and, these conversations are liberatory for everybody.

nicki: Yes.

leah: And I feel like I have to say, like, I am not an expert and I don’t know, and that I really do a approach, these conversations from a social science perspective. That also feels important to say, because there’s a lot of medical folks that are also having important conversations about these things and the conversations that those folks would be leading with are going to be really. Mindsets than where I’m going to be coming from today.

nicki: thank you for that. yeah, the brain is. So complex and complicated. I appreciate you saying that and we’re finding out more all the time about how the brain works and how different brains work and how the brain is just a part of our bodies, you know?

leah: Yeah.

nicki: Do you want to talk about what high sensitivity processing is in a, you know, in a nutshell, for listeners who maybe haven’t heard about that before, , and how that shows up for you. I think about how it shows up for me, and having language around what that experience can look like for people.

leah: So I like telling history through a story because that’s how my brain works. So something that feels important in telling a bit of history and the story around this trait being a highly sensitive person or HSP is in the acronym. A lot of people use, is. To say that this trait really emerged from research, which is a bit different than the neurodiversity movement.

So I’m giving some context that we’ll have a bit more of a relationship to come in. the next hour or so. And they happened around the same time. So, , Dr. Elaine, Erin is the clinical research psychologist who did, it seemed like from a really personal inclination. And also academically was really curious about.

When people were talking about being sensitive, like if that was something specific that didn’t have a language yet. And so that research over a period of years ended up being consolidated into the book of The highly sensitive person, which was released in 1996. And. One of the things that I’ve really appreciate about Dr. Aron’s work and this movement around sensory processing sensitivity, which is different than sensory processing disorder. Talk a little bit about the differences there too. And, kind of the pathology of lens of the disorder frame. It is that it was really identifying that some people do have a more active. Um,

nicki: Mirror neurons.

leah: I mean, yeah, , there are several parts of research. Now that will say more active mirror neurons. The insulin gets activated in different ways. Like there’s from the research that has happened since, you know, in the last 30 years, there’s some neurobiology that shows like, oh, , , this trait can be linked specifically to things have running in similar parts of the brain across. people that are identified as having this trait. And it did that in a way of saying, this is a temperament from people. This isn’t something to be labeled as a diagnosis. This is a variation of human temperament. And so in that it really is doing its best to lean into. There are different ways of being.

In our, in the fullness of our bodies and that those aren’t wrong, those ways, those differences aren’t wrong. In fact, they have evolutionary benefits and the most common way that’s talked about with sensory processing sensitivity is. The cute awareness to environments and evolutionary features of that.

Helping the individuals in a species are heard because this is a trait that’s track to other species, other animals, species as well would be more indicative to notice fluctuations than environment dangerous. There is change and access to different plants or food sources. And here we are in current modern culture you know, with specifically in our context, talking about humans that have ability to tune in and notice details in environment a bit more specifically. So I would love to just break down because it’s a part of the story, the way that Dr. Aaron mapped out. The specific four traits, within, sensory processing sensitivity. So the acronym is, does D O E S and I’m going to go through these quite briefly.

And if there’s any of them that, that pop out, or we want to talk about examples of how that looks in the world for either of us or, you know, just kind of in a scenario, we can do that to nikki.

nicki: Yes

leah: D is the processing. And so this is really looking at. The ability to notice subtleties in the environment.

There is a part of pause to check, which is a frame that Dr. Aaron uses of stepping into new environments. And there can be a moment. And I noticed this going into a lot of Disney’s spaces where I, a part of me, even if I’m physically still moving, is really starting to observe the new experiences in my environment.

A challenge with this is that it’s not a conscious. Decision for this step they’re processing. It happens whether we’re conscious of it or not. So There could be a lot said about this, but I’m just going to literally touch it and say, there’s a lot of conversations in the highly sensitive person, community around burnout, around sensory burnout, around capacity, and how to articulate a different, level or range of capacity, energetic capacity based on processing and processing more deeply. A lot of the sensory information that’s coming in through our external environments, which is what we often think about that information can also be internally inspired. So those of us with vast inner worlds are big, deep thinkers. We can be stimulating ourselves from input that is generated internally versus., the external world.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: So I always, yeah, for those big daydreamers or, you know, if you’re just really thinking on the world problems all the time, and you’re doing that deeply, like there’s a, brilliance to that, and there’s also a tax to that.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: So that’s a D the processing.

Oh is overstimulation. So there’s crossover here. People tend to wear out sooner and it becomes really important in this to understand what each of our optimal arousal levels look like. So we can do that for some folks. I really love the concept of building out sensory profiles, where you can understand if there are things that you’re hypersensitive specifically like a specific sensory channel that you’re hypersensitive or hyposensitive to,

and being able to meet specifically, meet your sensory needs in this like nuanced, you know, it’s kind of like a map of, you know, for me, it’s like my map of my weirdness and I don’t mean weird in like a bad way.

It’s just, you know, it’s just who I am.

So. Oh, is overstimulation . E stands for emotional reactivity and also empathy and reactivity. I’m always like, oh, am I being more reactive than other people? And it’s like, yes. I mean, it’s more active. So this is similar to, you know, when highly sensitive people are shown pictures of other people, whether they’re happy pictures or sad pictures, they tend to react more strongly. To those emotional states than people who are not highly sensitive.

nicki: Yeah

leah: And there’s a lot more research now, , framed in the concept called differential susceptibility of that highly sensitive people can be more reactive to different states. And this includes. Experiences in childhood and that they can be more traumatized by difficult early childhood experiences and can also find more benefits and the capacity to feel more joy or connection when they’re really positive, safe, , environments to thrive in.

And that, that is. , limiting experience. So even if you find yourself really navigating, having a lot of hardship in much of your life, highly sensitive folks are, , the research shows that there’s the capacity to find more resilience , to really come through those difficult experiences. And so , yeah, I guess a side note about too is there’s research in the highly sensitive kind of frame that highly sensitive people tend to benefit more from psychotherapy and therapeutic spaces than folks who don’t have that trait.

nicki: Interesting. I’ve spent some time in therapy,

you know, so it’s an interesting piece.

leah: Yeah. So all of these things are just hold and again, be curious about, , cause we’re, you know, I’m telling you all this, cause this is like the container of this specific set of research. And then we’re going to muddy it a little bit to

nicki: I love mud.

leah: You know, we have to start with what we have to, again, the E is emotional reactivity and empathy.

And then the S and does is sensing. And the thing that I really liked to remind here is that this isn’t about the idea that highly sensitive people just have better hearing or better eyesight. Like it’s not about those Oregon’s themselves as being. Like of higher quality or better health necessarily.

It really is the neurocognitive communication that’s happening in the body and the processing of the information through, in that, in that system. That’s what makes kind of the activation of that sensory input, more active throughout the body.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: So, yeah, the quote that I have here is that it’s not about the son’s organs themselves, but what occurs as sensory information is transmitted to are processed in the brain.

nicki: yeah, , that’s so rich. , I remember when I first learned about that, , acronym, , you know, it was from one of your newsletters and I just was captivated by, this body of research. found something that gave me language and a framework that explained how I process or that I found a lot of resonance with how I process my experience in the world.

leah: Yeah.

nicki: the ones that are really loud for me, it’s. No, the depths of processing, I kind of comb through an experience or a memory, that’s just how I think of it as like, go through it again and I go through it again. Again this is like language, right. Oh, you know, this is what dwelling is, or you should move on from this or something. And that’s not really how it feels to me all the time. , as it’s just like, my brain is doing it and I can’t really stop it. And then I’ll, pick up subtleties, maybe an interaction I’m a really visual thinker and speaker. , but it’s like, the way I think of it as I take a magnifying glass to these little things and you know, and this, this is happening for me.

Like when I’m like laying in bed, trying to fall asleep or I’m driving my car, just kinda mill through these things. , , . And gosh, empathy is another one. , that I have been working on because. an old pattern of mine is to, , practice, , affective empathy. And I get confused, , knowing and sorting out whose feelings are, whose and like actually having that, , you know, I think the term would be sematic empathy, like, oh, I actually have that feeling myself or what I perceive to be someone else’s feeling.

You know, and, kind of amazingly, think,, , one of the. things that I’ve taken out of this prolonged sheltering in place of, trying to survive the COVID pandemic is like I’ve gotten a chance to be a little more embodied, and get some more clarity about like where I am in my body.

Like instead of absorbing other people’s feelings and then getting confused about whose feelings are whose. And so that’s just. Big piece for me, , having this language, and framework is affirming to me , and then helpful, , because it’s like, , I don’t have to disassociate from my own experience, you know, , , , , , I don’t know if stigmatize is the word I would use, but I guess suppress kind of my own. Way of processing, the world,

, being sensitive is something that, there’s like a threshold that people have a tolerance for, you know? At least in my experience, people sometimes don’t have a capacity to understand, or there’s like a, you know, oh, you’re too sensitive now.

Or, , a questioning that comes up about my story. , so anyways,, I get a lot of value of, this body of research and , finding Dr. Aron’s book, , has provided me some, . Big help in that way, feeling more, comfortable in my body and my experience. And , like 20% of people, like this is an estimate, right? One in five people, know, might have this trait or way of processing information. Right.

leah: .I actually just read one of the most recent articles from a research project that Dr. Aaron was a part of and they’re finding it closer to between 20 and 30% of the population.

nicki: Uh, yeah, that many people.

leah: yeah, yeah,

nicki: yeah. It’s really powerful.

leah: I mean, that’s, I just wanted to briefly reflect back, like, what you’re saying is so powerful. Like this is one of the reasons why I really appreciate this body of work is that it’s one thing. To have this acronym and to have this title, right. Highly sensitive person or sensory processing sensitivity.

And it’s another thing to really honor that that experience is happening inside of people’s bodies and the complex intersections of who they are and how they identify and how others identify them and how we move the world. And it really has a huge impact on our interpersonal lives, on our relationships.

On our parents and families of origins and an a on our culture. Like there’s so many emotional threads to the things woven within just these four traits alone that have a huge impact on how people can feel okay. Being in their bodies

nicki: Yeah.

leah: and feeling like there’s something there to actually give back.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: You know, professionally and community to a partner, to your family.

That’s like the thing that really, you can probably hear as I’m like talking about this too. I know we can see each other, but just thinking audio, like when I started to hear other people’s stories and started to identify over time, it took me a while because of conditioning to realize that this is a trait that I really actually do identify with.

So there’s so much shame. And that shame becomes personalized. Like we take it on as our own, but it is in fact in our culture and we don’t see the infection. We’re just like, oh, I have this thing. And it corrodes. This capacity to, you know, I think one of the things that sensitivity, whether it’s through highly sensitive person or another neurodivergent, trait identity is that sensitivity and people that have higher active experience around sensitivity are naturally oriented towards connection. And like, what do we need more of right now? And also what is not more painful and more fraught and more challenging is to find places of connecting to each other and also connecting to other ways of being in, communicating in the natural role.

Then our own bodies

Eden. guess that was more worlds than I imagined. And I wanted to appreciate what you were saying from your own experience, because it is really powerful to let this experience of oneself. If this is a true experience in whatever way, that looks for you to let it in, because it’s hard to let it in.

It’s, it’s hard to not numb or mask or. To honor that, Hey, if this thing is real about me, it means that I have to really honor that this is who I am, and I have to maybe take care of myself in different ways. And I have to forgive myself and I have to create a culture for myself. That’s going to help me thrive and really extract these oppressive systems that weren’t going to work for me.

If this is who I am, there’s a lot of advocacy within community and also for self. And finding it an inherent sense of worth and personal power when the culture is like, Hey, you should probably not be that sensitive.

nicki: Yeah. Yeah. Right. That resonates for me so much. You know, and like working within the context of our own stories, right? , how powerful that is and like how hard. It is to , create space for that. because , I think about, what you just said about how people say, oh, you shouldn’t be so sensitive, you know? Or like, oh, maybe you shouldn’t be, you’re so emotional and, just how pervasive. Violent communication is in our society. And , like, being a parent of young children, I see that like, oh, , this comes, from the beginning of it all.

This is how we talk to children by like invalidating experiences, , telling them that they’re not feeling what they’re feeling, telling them that their story actually isn’t true. You know? And so just that being a data point where this internalized shame comes in and is a roadblock for like, being able to work within our stories, and like making space for stories, you know, it is so critical and really wonderful because once you do that, you know, so much gets released,

leah: Yeah,

nicki: Yeah, you know, and then just thinking too about the labels, you know, like how, again, this, term HSP Like I find it helpful, but it’s also like, oh, that’s not a diagnosis in the DSM five. So like, people don’t know what that means, and , you know, I just want to be understood. cause sometimes that can help my relationships. Like, my life partner has ADHD and the fact that he has this. Clinical diagnosis. You know, again, the framework that we’re working in, when we talk about how people perceive and experience the world, , and how their brains work in their bodies work, , having this label helps me meet him where he’s at. so I have some understanding of how he is experiencing the world. It also helps alleviate some of the pressure of that internalized shame that he didn’t have language for up until he got this term. So, you know, again, there’s some helpfulness that comes out of that, but it’s also problematic, you know, , So there’s a lot of threads in

that, Yeah.

,

leah: I’m curious and imagining what else is possible moving forward. Does the part of you wish that the trait of sensory processing sensitivity was also something listed in the DSM? Or do you see the culture? Around this or what would support you to go in a different direction?

nicki: Oh, that’s a wonderful question. I don’t know. I would need some time

leah: the processing.

Yep.

nicki: to sit and think with that.

leah: Yeah,

nicki: Yeah,

I would have an answer for you in like four days.

leah: totally. Well, and I love again, the

theme of not knowing, like bringing it alive again. Here we are.

nicki: Totally.

leah: Yeah. I mean, we’re, in something that’s changing every day

nicki: I guess what’s coming to mind now as we’re, talking about this, you know, I think about how a lot of conversations. where we, again, assigning language and kind of categorizing people, you know, which, there’s a lot that’s really charged, again, cause we want to be able to understand each other and languages, how we do that. But also when you start putting people in boxes, it’s like, Ooh, the boxes, get messy,

leah: Yeah.

nicki: And so the terms neurodivergent and neuro typical, like, I feel like are very popular right now, at least are becoming more mainstream. and I think that that is helpful. , but also like I find it frustrating. You know, what are your thoughts about using language in that way or the framework, what comes to mind for you when you think about how we talk about it with those terms or in those ways, or the paradigm that we use to talk about, social model of disability.

leah: Yeah. All really good questions and things that I, I think about often then in my mind also shifts in the terrain as I hear other different people speaking about it and speaking for themselves, you know, I think one of the things that is really incredible and the neurodiversity movement, that’s also been really important in the disability justice movement is that people who are experiencing. These different impairments or differences are able to speak and tell their own stories or to not speak, but to write or for, you know, non-speaking autistics, like to be able to write or move or breathe and tell their stories their own and not have it be narrated through somebody else’s literal Lakeland’s language and worldview.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: So. Yeah, just stepping back from the highly sensitive person framework and moving towards the neurodiversity framework. I just want to name kind of a piece of the origin story, how I understand, and that feels, it’s kind of like the seed of it. That feels really different and it’s not judging us necessarily. So like I said, the highly sensitive person I had done city are, you know, frame. Really emerged from this work of literature from Dr. Aaron. And from that book and people reading the book community was built people started finding spaces to tell their stories and look at resources through that lens.

And it really emerged first from this research, that’s partly why when people talk about highly sensitive people and sensory processing sensitive, There’s kind of this interesting, and I don’t mean this. It’s not a good or a bad thing, but people are like Dr. Lane, Aaron, you know, cause it emerged through this portal of this book that this human root, whereas the neurodiversity movement is much more of like a rebel rousing story.

And there’s something about that intuitively. Resonates more for me, it’s just more like my culture and my people, like people are pissed off. And so they created something that could hopefully be more imaginative than the thing that was oppressing them.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: And so over a period of time, as I was studying highly sensitive person and then came more into research and cultural experiences around the neurodiversity movement, there was something there for me that felt more inclusive of my experience and I don’t quite know what to do with that.

So I just want to save us in case this resonates for other folks. I don’t quite know what to do with that. Cause based on a neurocognitive assessment that I did, I have autistic traits. I don’t know that I would be diagnosed as autistic there’s not necessarily another, like, I don’t fit into one of the, like, Neuro minority categories of in the neurodiversity movement. Whereas I do find a huge resonance with the highly sensitive person,

nicki: Yeah.

leah: like frame and identification of the trait, but I can’t just, stay there. Like it doesn’t. I just even talking about it right now. Like I feel squirmy about it. I’m like, well, something doesn’t it. Maybe it’s too narrow. Maybe it’s maybe it’s not asking the kind of questions, visualizing a future of what it would look like to have this. to me, a lot of the questions around highly sensitive person, community conversations, and this is by no means true. , the whole movement, you know, just generally speaking in my own experience there, how can we make the world more inclusive for highly sensitive people?

And for me, I am just not interested in that focus. I am much more interested in how do we make the world more inclusive for people who are experiencing difference and people who are minorities in a variety of capacities. And I can just relate to that sort of sense of injustice and sense of systemic oppression through this one particular way of me feeling contextualized in that sense of, the intersections of which I might experience, being more in a minority position.

nicki: Yeah. could you elaborate a little bit when you feel squirmy, where is exactly you feel squirmy? Like . which camps, cause there has to, you have to pick or something, you know, and we, we, don’t really want to do that.

leah: Yeah, right.

I might have a different way of saying I I’m sure I’ll have a different way of staying less in the future. And right now, what I can articulate really clearly is that it doesn’t work for me, that the highly sensitive person framework. Works through this space of not pathologizing, you know, saying that it’s a temperament, but in doing that in a conversation of helping people find identity, it also does this pathologize other differences. So it’s saying I’m highly sensitive, so I’m not autistic.

nicki: yeah,

leah: And in saying that those things aren’t neutral it’s I would rather be highly sensitive than autistic and that does not work for them.

nicki: yeah.

leah: So that is a huge piece of it for me. , I will also say, just briefly two other things. One is feel curious and sometimes often weary when voices in a community are predominantly white Even though I, I culturally am white. That is something that I’m learning to be cautious of because there are voices and experiences that I am not hearing that feel really important to be asking why aren’t they here? And this isn’t to say that the conversation around high sensitivity and sensory processing sensitivity is exclusively white. It is no longer. And it is really growing in the voices and bodies and intersections that are speaking to that lived experience. And I think because it comes through this research door and, just has kind of more of that sense of it. Hasn’t been a big rated enough, like there’s things that don’t work about it that I can’t even name yet.

And I, I’m almost like I’m, I’m doing my best to hold space for picking up those things as they come through.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: , and then the last piece is just a math thing for me, where I’m like, okay, if 20 to 30% of the population is highly sensitive, but that doesn’t include what research currently is saying. This that doesn’t include our really crossover with most of them. neurodivergent traits then, like we’re missing so much of the language that doesn’t exist now and will have its own iterations and like 20 years and 40 years even scientifically. And so right now, I’m just like, I don’t want to hold this too tiny as an idea. Or even as a cultural like, space, because I really think it will become healthier if it’s able to move and change over time.

nicki: Yeah. Thank you for all of that. You know, I’m just speaking to one of the things that you just, , talked about with like, , , the high sensitivity processing community and framework and one thing in like Dr. Aron’s book and then elsewhere, there is this explicit.

Labeling of high sensitivity processing is not a fault. It’s a trait. And it’s like, whoa, I see this as like this desire to give language to this, processing style. But like, keep it squarely in the context of pathologizing, the diversity of ways in which people think and process the world you know, which is incredibly frustrating. And there’s a huge limit of service that, that does, you know? I just feels like there’s just this like clinging on to that framework that, I feel from that,

leah: yeah. Yeah, it doesn’t. Yeah, like that just doesn’t work for me. I can’t,

nicki: Yeah. I can’t. you know, , as you describe your experience,

My oldest kiddo who is seven. And, you know, you might say as neuro atypical, and you know, we were still learning about what is going on for him so we can support him. and it’s like, not clear if he’s autistic yet. Like, we had an inconclusive assessment and, he does have sensory processing disorder. and sometimes I wonder if he has, you know, like again, the language we’re just doing the best we can, but it’s like, oh, well his, he also highly sensitive, and again, in my own, cursory research, This distinction made between the two and how like high sensitivity processing is a trait and sensory processing disorder is like, it’s in the word right disorder. it’s in the language that we’re using , which is not coming from a strength based, mindset.

so it just, Gets confusing really fast. and what is that serving other than like how you bill insurance, like medical billing codes and like, I don’t know. psychologists who do incredible work, but also like, I don’t know, we don’t have to, but again, assigning a category. which its benefits and limitations.

leah: Yeah.

nicki: So

leah: Yeah,

nicki: that’s that.

leah: yeah. There are several things popping, as you’re saying that. And I can just going to. The small piece of saying folks that are in the midst of this with their partner with themselves, with their family there’s work on so many levels. There’s time there’s appointments. There’s the curiosity, and also the worry about how to support the people we’re caring for and the people we love the most

nicki: Yeah,

leah: and there’s systems that don’t help. And there are people that sometimes it really do. And in all of that, you’re not. Looking to, find out some sort of clarity or next step. There’s also like that shame is pervasive in those spaces.

nicki: Yes.

leah: So to me, this is why I love coming back to like the social narrative perspective of these experiences.

It’s like we all have these bodies and totally. Exist in your joy and your pleasure and your full experience. And also say, this hard thing is happening to me. It’s even harder by this culture. And I’m trying to take care of all of these things on this very 3d kind of level, while also pushing out this immense amount of shame and judgment.

And some of that can be coming from internally, right. ’cause we’ve like, we’ve like eaten.

you know, whatever that is like it’s inside

of us at this point.

nicki: Yes.

leah: And keeping that out, or like being able to have enough connection to our wholeness or this being okay. That’s not being wrong.

And then to script a new story at the same time, like my family is brave for holding this space. My family is brave for. , being able to ask for support and recreate a culture for ourselves that helps us realize that we were loving each other, as who we are versus trying to create a culture of normalcy and a culture that translates to the people around us.

There’s just, there’s so much of that work. In addition to all of the things that we oftentimes hear about like seeing occupational therapists or getting appointments, We’re just finding good friend matches for ourselves or

cutting board: Yeah.

leah: our kiddo. Who’s that, you know, folks, that have kiddos

nicki: Yeah.

leah: anyway, there’s a level of just internal and relational rebellion around. Putting that shame somewhere else. So we can at least breathe and feel a

sense of compassion for ourselves

and for our family or

a community as we do this really

it’s courageous work.

nicki: Yeah, thank you for all of that.

and like every time I hear someone say that I’m like, thank you for saying that, you know, like I can never hear it enough, you know? so yeah, just thank you for breathing the words,

because it is exhausting, you know? Um, cause I am so in this.

doing the supports and navigating all that stuff. And while, culture crafting working my best to be intentional about it and doing the best you know, we do the best we can with what we have and doing that in a co-creating kind of way, with the people in our lives.

leah: Yeah.

nicki: So, uh, we’re almost out of time. , I want to ask you a few more questions.

leah: Yeah.

nicki: so , in the work that you do or any of your passion projects, what is something that you imagine, wanting to see, or to come to fruition and, working towards, or that you’re curious about, Can you tell us what that looks like or what that feels like?

leah: Yeah. And caveat, I think that doing this work of imagining is really hard. Like there are ways that I want to imagine what the world would look like beyond all of these. Labels that we use that our from a pathology paradigm that are supposedly things that are helping us liberate one another.

And I get that there’s some quality of support and benefit, and it’s also, still feels oppressive on some level or limiting. And yet I have to work. I have to labor to imagine that it’s not easy. And so. Hearing this question, I honestly have to go to imagining something that feels maybe like it’s more from my childhood.

Like I’ve been working on imagining it for a long time. And for me, that is about and trusting a loving relationship with the living lab. And I can imagine that because I have lived into that through my childhood. And I feel like, I came remembering that like, when I like had my body, you know, really emerged into this particular time and place that I could remember how amazing this place is.

And I love imagining. Sharing a mutual kinship to other beings and to place with other humans.

nicki: Yeah.

leah: you know, the picture that comes to mind. Cause I live literally there’s forest and amazing, amazing trees that I like to talk to just in my literal. Like it’s not mine, but in the backyard space of this land and just having people feel embodied. And arrested and regulated and their bodies walking through this forest with the sense of belonging and a receptivity to taking in how much this place. And these beings love us. As much as we might find it. to imagine that that kind of love exists for us as a species are us personally.

nicki: thank you for that.

What is, you know, a moment, , and this can vary on the spectrum of epiphany to something really small, , you’ve experienced the feeling of surprise.

leah: Okay. This is really weird.

nicki: Love it.

leah: Okay.

nicki: Tell me, I want to hear it.

leah: I don’t do why if the first thing that comes to mind is very, very linear and responding to this question. And it’s this image of me. I grew up , , in California, right near tide pools. And I remember going down. Over a period of time throughout, I mean, my entire childhood, but the first few, the times that I realized that I was saved to put my finger in a sea anemone.

nicki: Yes.

leah: and the way you do it really slowly, then the sea anenome is like curious. So like that feeling of how, like the little barbs, which feel different on human scanner rate, like touch and it’s not a tickle, there’s like, almost like. Grittiness of connection, but then if you give too much movement, then it’ll just pull right in. And I remember the first time I was feeling that and I was like, I’ve never felt anything like this before.

And then it, like, I think just the energy of like all coming through my body, I must’ve moved and then it closed up and I just remember being so surprised by like the expression of this other being in relationship to me and. The tide pools and like thresholds places like the shoreline, or just such a place of wonder and like poetry for me. And yeah, that CNN really surprised me so much. I told you it was weird.

nicki: I love it. No, I love it. thank you for that. Actually, um,, been talking about sea anenomes recently because my kids want to go to the coast, to do exactly that.

leah: That’s so fantastic.

nicki: no, that’s just delightful. It is a very interesting sensation and I am remembering that because I spent my childhood doing that when we go to the coast is I’d find a sea anenome, any friends and yeah, just that sensation of how they grip you, you know?

nicki: So, Leah, for folks who, you know, want to connect with you or learn more about your offerings, where can they find you?

leah: So. I have made what, to me is been a brave decision to pretty much be off of social media. And that’s been something at some point I’m really open to that changing and that been. Uh, way of honoring my sensitivity and the way I tend to experience that space. And so, which is delightful because it means that I send people to my most private and welcoming space, which is my website.

And so I would invite you to find me at Leah L E a H. My middle initial is K and my last name is Walsh. W a L S H , but anyway, Leahkwalsh.com. And I will make note that there is a page up there under resources that are neurodiversity resources and it’s A space for me to post articles and all of the books that I found really helpful and thought leaders in the neurodiversity movement. And. yeah, just really wanting to give like a community resource space for some of the things that we touched on and like the gillions of ones that we didn’t in this conversation today.

So I invite folks there, whether you’re interested in my coaching work or just wanting to find more about the neurodiversity movement that there some free downloads and some just great through sources that have been valuable to me. And I really hope and think others find them valuable as well.

nicki: Great. Wonderful. yeah, I’ll link all of that in the show notes. Aaliyah is. A delight and pleasure to be in conversation with you today. And, I’m just like, oh, only an hour.

leah: I feel like we didn’t get to talk about neuro queerness or

nicki: or anger.

leah: Yeah. What it means is that boundaries are that empathy piece that you named is so real. So anyway, we can just, he, and there’s so much here, that’s interconnected

nicki: Yeah. Yeah.

leah: and just letting that feel messy right now.

nicki: Messy. Yeah. Uh, I’m gonna with . Messy and mud and manure on a roll around in it today.

leah: Yeah. Yeah. I am going to use that self-compassion frame of shared humanity and being like, I’m going to feel really at home doing the same thing. Cause I think that for folks that aren’t doing that, it just feels like stepping out of the invitation to just not now and just really be devoured by life right now and also show up in our rage and our grief and our pleasure bodies too.

[Music fade in]

nicki: yeah, All of that. Well, thank you so much.

leah: Yeah.

nicki: That concludes this episode of Nicki’s Wonder List. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I’m really glad I got to share it here.

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You can also click on the link in the show notes to get there. Thank you for listening to Nicki’s Wonder List. Until next time.